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  • Padirac

    Antisemitismen inom vänstern, varför?

    nattuw skrev 2021-07-04 19:30:35 följande:
    Inte om man får tro Gerard Aalders och Cees Wiebes.

    Långt innan Flam skrev sin bok skrev de en bok med den självförklarande titeln:  "The Art of Cloaking Ownership: The Secret Collaboration and Protection of the German War Industry by the Neutrals: The Case of Sweden"
    [Gerard Aalders och Cees Wiebes; Amsterdam University Press; First edition (June 1, 1996)]

    Det var några år sedan jag läste boken men den gav inte bilden av ett Sverige som ansträngde sig för att hjälpa de allierade. Tvärt om så försökte Svenska intressen skydda tyska tillgångar mot att konfiskeras av de allierade.

    Från Amazon:
    After years of intensive research in archives throughout Europe and the U.S., the authors of The Art of Cloaking Ownership discovered that firms located in 'neutral' Sweden supported the Nazis' financial and industrial leadership
    ---
    Among other things, Enskilda acted as a cloak for the Nazi regime and helped important German corporations like Bosch, IG Farben and Krupp to hide their foreign subsidiaries in order to avoid confiscation by the Allied "

    Den som är intresserad av boken men skräms av titeln kan jag lugna med att boken inte var särskilt tungläst.
    Och här kommer resten av texten från Amazon

    "After years of intensive research in archives throughout Europe and the U.S., the authors of The Art of Cloaking Ownership discovered that firms located in 'neutral' Sweden supported the Nazis' financial and industrial leadership. The case of Enskilda, a bank owned by the still powerful Wallenberg family, proved to be particularly interesting. Among other things, Enskilda acted as a cloak for the Nazi regime and helped important German corporations like Bosch, IG Farben and Krupp to hide their foreign subsidiaries in order to avoid confiscation by the Allied governments.This fascinating book, offers a dramatic picture of the tangled web of relationships connecting capitalism, power and politics during the Second World War."

    Menar du att enskilda företag är samma som svenska staten och myndigehter? Eller innehåller boken mer uppgifter som pekar på annat än företag och företagare? 
  • Padirac
    nattuw skrev 2021-07-04 20:09:47 följande:
    Jag rekommenderar att du läser boken så att du kan bilda dig en egen uppfattning om dess innehåll och om den tid som boken berör.
    Boken du refererar till tar upp Wallenberg, Enskilda banken, SKF - inte de svenska myndigheterna eller svenska staten.

    Kort om boken du pushar som att stödja Flam - vilket jag ifrågasätter sanningshalten av.

    warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/reviews/aalders.pdf

    "This book is the outcome of the authors’ exhaustive investigation of the wartime activity and interests of the Wallenburg brothers, Jacob and Marcus, prominent in Swedish financial circles of the time. Its main focus is on the Stockholm Enskilda Bank (SEB). Aalders and Wiebes argue that SEB played a significant role as an intermediary for private German companies such as Bosch, IG Farben, and Krupp, helping them to conceal and thereby retain ownership of foreign subsidiaries which otherwise would have been liable to confiscation by the Allied powers, and helping the wartime German government both to retain ownership of its foreign assets and to realise the proceeds from sale of assets looted from Germany’s occupied territories, Jewish families, and so on. In addition, the Wallenburg-controlled ball-bearing manufacturer Svenska Kullager Fabriken (SKF) not only played its part in concealing German ownership of foreign subsidiaries across the world, but also supplied the German war economy with large quantities of ball-bearings in the decisive stages of the war."

    "The AaldersWiebes methodology is definitely a legal one: the step-by-step accumulation of an overwhelming mass of incriminating evidence both direct and circumstantial. Their criterion for condemnation is also implicitly legal, sometimes “on the balance of probabilities”, sometimes “beyond reasonable doubt”. But a jury of lay readers might wish that the law had been more clearly stated, and the case more succinctly summarised. The authors do not explain the meaning of neutrality, the rights of neutrals in a conflict, or how the rights and obligations of citizens of a neutral country might differ from those of its government. Nor is there much of a summing up, the opportunity for which is diverted into speculation about the fate of Raoul Wallenburg"

    "This legalistic approach means that many important questions are not asked. Social scientists (as opposed to jurists) are often professionally more inclined to see behaviour as the test of law, rather than law as the test of behaviour; on this point the documentary evidence may well not suffice, and other kinds of knowledge should be brought to introduced. At the level of governments and policies one set of questions arises concerning neutrality. How viable was the Swedish concept of neutrality when most other countries were at war? Was neutrality feasible in principle (or, on the other hand, was it the only possible objective)? Was there any way of upholding neutrality other than by doing dirty deals with both sides? If Swedish neutrality was compromised, what criteria are appropriate for us to decide whether it was substantially compromised, on a large scale? At the level of private interests and individuals we need to know more about the motives which drove behaviour and the calculations which directed it. Why did the Wallenburgs act as they did? Was it for the sake of immediate profits, or pro-German or pro-Nazi feeling, or some calculation of the long-run value of their market position in the global economy after a German victory? The relationship to Nazi goals of the German firms’ interests with which the Wallenburgs were involved is also unexamined. Were Krupp and Bosch trying to uphold the long-run overseas financial position of Hitler’s Reich, or were they pursuing their own private strategy regardless of the outcome of the war? How was it that so many in Swedish and Allied governments colluded with the Wallenburgs - was it because of personal friendship, financial self-interest, or shared objectives for restructuring the postwar global economy?"

    Handelshögskolan Göteborgs Universitet  - mer om SKF och Sverige.

    www.econhist.gu.se/digitalAssets/1341/1341645_golson.pdf

    "Just over thirty years ago, Scandinavian Economic Historians were absorbed in a lively debate over the extent to which Sweden aided the German war effort. In the most famous of the articles during this period, Alan Milward demonstrated that denying Swedish iron ore to Germany could not have stopped the war;2 eight years later, Martin Fritz’s study of ball bearings concluded that Sweden did not provide sufficient aid to the German war effort to change the course of the war.3 Although this debate ended formally in the late 1970s, many questions were left unanswered. The most puzzling is why so much diplomatic effort was put into policies of the international supply of ball bearings if they seemed so unimportant to post‐war commentators.4 A fresh examination of the ball bearings industry in the Second World War indicates that Swedish‐controlled ball bearings were crucial to both the German and British war effort. Of the two, the Swedish parent company supplied more ball bearings and machine tools to the Germans, enough to significantly affect the outcome of the war. But the Swedish government’s overall wartime activities were more even‐handed than the headline trade statistics might suggest, for example, letting British planes and ships run the blockade from Sweden in 1942. But, although it nominally controlled much of the production of German and British ball bearings, denying either belligerent Swedish‐supplied bearings or machines would merely have slowed the war effort, not ended it.   Ball and roller bearings are special"

    "In negotiations with the American and British economic warfare offices and representatives of the USCC and UKCC, SKF agreed to severely limit exports to Germany from 13 April until 12 October 1944 for 22 million Kronor in cash. However, the American government also agreed, among other benefits, to compensate SKF the equivalent of 140 million Kronor for bombing VKF in Germany and to unfreeze SKF assets in the US (where it had been blacklisted as an enemy cooperating company).27 The long list of benefits to SKF to stop exporting to Germany makes it look as though access to a neutral’s production goes to the highest bidder, notwithstanding previously agreed trade patterns."

    "SKF also had an important effect on the British war effort, providing some 31% of British ball bearings production, including considerable quantities for aero engines. As with Germany, Sweden’s part in the British ball bearings supply chain includes both domestic production and Swedish imports. Although the archives of the British ball bearing control directorate are missing, the UK was dependent on SKF for certain aspects of bearings production."

    "Direct wartime imports from Sweden provided about 15% of all British ball bearings. Blockade‐running ships and airplanes were employed to maintain the British imports from Sweden. This trade was an overt choice by the Swedish government to aid the Allied war effort without German consent. It went against the War Trade Agreement process.47 It can even be asserted that these naval and air journeys constituted British military operations launched from Swedish territory. For example, former military officers commanded the boats, while seconded RAF officers piloted the planes. Some carried guns and most used military evasion tactics.48 The illicit nature of the trade, not to mention the use, docking and operation of these ships and airplanes in neutral Sweden, exposes it to the charge of being unduly biased towards the Allied cause, but the same could of course be said about supplying the Germans with bearings above the agreed levels. Whatever the circumstances, these naval and airborne exports from Sweden have not hitherto been reported as part of Swedish wartime trade."

    "It should be noted that SKF provided even more substantial discounts to Britain’s ball bearings purchases than Germany’s.73 Table II shows that in 1938, SKF charged the British 74% of the price to Germany for the same material, and by 1943 this figure dropped to 68%. Such discounts off list prices were commercial decisions agreed to as part of the trade negotiations.74 Their rationale remains unclear but it may be argued that it derived from the convertibility of the Pound versus other currencies received. However, SKF set the prices and retained only Kronor earnings so under‐pricing gave them no advantage.75 The discounts could have been an attempt, notable at the time, by SKF to maintain favour and to quash Allied blacklisting and other threats against itself and its British and American subsidiaries.76 Unfortunately, when the SKF archives perished, they probably put the precise reasons for these discounts beyond discovery"

    "The statistics show the Swedish bearings industry, specifically SKF, worked more for the German war effort than the Allies’ and settled prices according factors beyond normal business considerations. But it should be remembered the Swedish government violated the established trade rules for both sides, as the over‐supply of Germany and Britain’s blockade‐ running make clear. Moreover, the Americans and British were allowed to pre‐emptively contravene Sweden’s previously agreed and contracted trade terms with Germany. This does not absolve the industry from working more for the Germans than the British, but does demonstrate Sweden’s active role in ensuring access to the industry for both belligerents.  "

    "But, while Sweden could theoretically have mitigated the losses of the Second World War, it is unclear how it would have been possible to suspend ball bearings and the related exports. Such a suspension would have seemed unreasonable given the Swedish position. Several recent commentaries on neutral European countries in the Second World War have implied that their neutrality should be equated with isolationism,82 but strict isolationism, including suspension of trade, was then impossible for neutrals.83 Sweden depended on imported food and fuel to sustain its population. Suspending ball bearings exports would have led to trade retaliation and probably involved some kind of military action against it. SKF subsidiaries, already harassed because of their neutral affiliation, could have been expropriated by the belligerents. This helps to explain the behaviour of SKF and its government.  The policies discussed above were specifically designed to maintain exports to both belligerents. Because they were so difficult to replace, the belligerents’ need for access to Sweden was unappeasable."
  • Padirac
    nattuw skrev 2021-07-05 17:07:25 följande:
    Så du läste boken på under en timme. Nå vad tyckte du om boken?
    Vem har sagt det?  

    Boken har funnits vara dåligt underbyggd av andra läsare med långt bättre kunskaper än jag har om dessa historiska skeenden. Dessa har jag redovisat.
  • Padirac
    nattuw skrev 2021-07-05 18:25:47 följande:
    Så du har inte läst boken och har därmed ingen aning om vad den faktiskt innehåller. Men du är ändå tvärsäker på att boken inte innehåller några referenser till de svenska myndigheterna eller staten.
    Om du har en referns till det du påstår får du ge belägg för detta -

    Jag har hittat uppgifter som säger att boken handlar om svenska företag - och boken kritiserades för att inte skilja på företag och regering.
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-07-13 15:06:37 följande:
    Att man gör skillnad på etniciteter, eller rättare sagt mellan medborgare och icke medborgare ligger i de flesta länders konstitution och den allmänt erkända rätten till en nations suveränitet och självbestämmande.
    Etnicitet har varit för SD en fråga om medborgarskap eller inte - liksom enbart de ariska germanska personen kunde vara en del av det tredje riket Död
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-07-13 15:43:41 följande:
    Du vet att tråden handlar om antisemitism inom vänstern va?
    Brukar inte du påstå att nazism är vänster, va
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-07-13 15:55:55 följande:

    Jo, men jag påstår också att sd är höger= inte alls nazister, även om det finns inslag i deras ideologi som påminner om nazism.


    Dessutom provade jag just att heila några gånger här för mig själv och det gav mig inte alls några hatkänslor över judar eller icke-svenskar eller viljan att utrota dem. Det kändes mest bara fånigt, som att spela en obekväm roll.


    Förvånad
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-08-19 04:37:59 följande:
    Kopplingen mellan nazism och islam är ganska omfattande, inte minst under VK2. Tyskarna ville exempelvis upprätta muslimska SS-förband.
    Det finns också en omfattande anti-nazistisk verksamhet av muslimer under WW2.

    Nazism och fascism var på det politiska modet runt -30talet, mellanöstern och andra muslimska områden inte borträknade.  Antisemiter stödde också den nazistiska utrotningen av de judiska människorna.

    Ang SS-förbanden som tyskarna ville - men inte kunde  - få till stånd var det enskilda fascistiska grupper snarare än muslimska grupper...   mer spekulationer som inte saknar fakta som talar mot spekluationen ... desinformation? 
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-08-19 13:34:51 följande:
    Antisemitism bland muslimer kan svårligen ses som en del av "det politiska modet runt 30-talet".

    Nazister och deras idéer verkade med stöd av muslimska ledare i ME även långt efter VK2.

    Ur artikeln  NAZISTERNAS FÖRSÖK ATT MOBILISERA ISLAM (som bland annat refererar till och delvis recenserar böckerna Hakkorset och halvmånen av Niclas Sennerteg och David Motadel Islam and Nazi Germanys War:  

    "Men det är viktigt att känna till denna bakgrund för att förstå hur det kan komma sig att antisemitisk propaganda av europeisk, och särskilt nazistisk typ, fått insteg i Mellanöstern och att böcker som det ryska falsariet Sions vises protokoll eller Hitlers Mein Kampf ännu kan vara bästsäljande i boklådorna i Kairo, Beirut och Damaskus."
    Nazisterna och deras idéer verkade också i Europa och Americas långt efter WW2 - i Sverige ledde detta till att det bildades ett parti med namnet Sverigedemokraterna, ett parti som nu sitter invalda i riksdagen, ett parti som nu vunnit stöd av en stor del av befolkningen och vissa andra partiers partiledare.... Nazism och fascism är långt från borta från vår närhet och vår samtid.

    Andra exempel på samma sak är Le Pens parti i Frankrike, AfS i Tyskland; Grekiska Gyllene gryning ... bara för att nämna de mest uppenbara på hemmaplan...

    Din källa säger visst att det det är europeisk antisemitisk propganda som sprids i mellanöstern..... hmm..
  • Padirac
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-08-19 12:28:46 följande:

    Ur Al Huseins memoarer:

    Juden är Islams fiende. Det var dem som dödade profeten Mohammed. Det är nödvändigt att araberna som helhet och muslimerna i synnerhet driver ut judarna från arabländerna. Det är den bästa lösningen. Det är samma lösning som användes av profeten Mohammed för 1300 år sedan. Versailleavtalet var katastrofalt för Tyskland och araberna. Men Tyskland vet hur man blir av med judarna. Det som förenar oss med tyskarna är att tyskarna aldrig skadat muslimerna, och att de slåss mot vår gemensamma fiende judarna. Men framför allt, de har äntligen löst judeproblemet för gott. Tiden arbetar mot judarna, även om de allierade hjälper dem.
    ....
    Jag bad Hitler om ett tydligt löfte att tillåta oss att lösa judeproblemet så att det passade våra nationella och rasliga aspirationer och enligt de vetenskapliga metoder som tyskarna hade uppfunnit vad gäller behandlingen av sina judar. Det svar jag fick: Judarna är era.

    Ur Al Bannas tal:

    Muftin är lika mycket värd som hela nationen. Muftin är Palestina och Palestina är muftin. O Amin, vilken stor och oböjlig,storartad man är du inte. Hitlers och Mussolinis nederlag har inte skrämt dig. Vilken hjälte, vilken hjälte till man. Vi vill veta vad den arabiska ungdomen, regeringsministrar, rika folk och furstarna i Palestina, Syrien, Irak, Tunisien, Marocko och Tripolis ska göra för att vara värdiga denna hjälte, som med Hitlers hjälp och Tysklands Utmanande av ett imperium och kämpade mot sionismen. Tyskland och Hitler finns inte mer, men Amin el-Husseini ska fortsätta kampen.


    Om dessa herrar var pronazistiska kanske det går att spekulera i att de inte var opartiska och därför inte återgett samtal och uppgifter korrekt - om det inte finns fakta som motsäger denna spekulation så ...

    Eller hur det nu var du sade i den andra nazist-tråden
    Tom Araya skrev 2021-08-18 21:12:02 följande:
    Det är knappast en tankevurpa att spekulera så länge ingen fakta talar mot spekuleringarna.

    Hur vanlig är det att historiker refererar till intervjun/artikeln?
Svar på tråden Antisemitismen inom vänstern, varför?